[LRUG] My experience of Rails job hunting in London (so far!!)

[Najaf Ali]

D'oh, also didn't reply to list:

Hi Anthony,

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into this jobhunt so I hope you'll
be able to see some value in the advice below. I've experienced all of the
above and worse but so far have only had one interview where the
interviewer rejected me (but have had quite a few where I rejected the
interviewer or got the offer but had no availability).

On Feedback:

People not getting back to you feedback is in no way deliberate. In the
vast majority of cases, other candidates, the boss's coffee, client work,
meetings etc get in the way and whoever's been put in charge of recruitment
filing doesn't get around to dropping you an apologetic and carefully
worded note saying that they're sorry but you're not what they're looking
for at the moment. You can get upset and take offense at this if you like,
or you could just follow up.

I have a pretty regimented follow-up process. After a meeting (be it over
skype, phone or in person) they get an email summarising the interaction
and attempting to arrange a next action. If there's no response to that,
they get another email after three days, a phone call a week after that
(that actually gets through), and that's when they're taken off the
potential leads list.

I'm not suggesting you follow a similar method, but taking ownership of the
follow-up process at the very least removes uncertainty about how you
should proceed with potential hirers (e.g. "I gave them a week to get back
after I followed up, they didn't, so as far as I'm concerned it's a no-go").

On Interviewing in General:

As explained in other responses, most people are worse at interviewing than
you are at giving interviews. Your task in an interview is *not* to jump
through whatever arbitrary hoops an interview puts in front of you: it's to
give them so many excuses to hire you that it would seem ridiculous not to
give you an offer, no matter what the format of the interview is.

In your example, they put you in front of an unfamiliar computer, with
unfamiliar tools and a problem you (I think) were unsure about the solution
to. Jumping straight into that is a battle you couldn't possibly have won,
and I think you knew it at the time. The interviewers were probably as
nervous as you about the whole engagement, so taking charge of the
situation would have made things more pleasant for everyone. You could have
said:

"OK guys, I'm not completely comfortable with Textmate and using Macs in
general, so if it's OK with you I'm going to take a few minutes on my own
to get familiar with the development environment."

And later:

"Would you (the programmer you weren't pairing with) be so kind as to stand
behind me instead of sitting so close? It's nothing personal, it's just
that being sandwiched in here between the two of you is making me a little
uncomfortable".

If you got stuck with the problem, got nervous and started stumbling:

"Would it be alright if I took a few minutes on my own with a notepad and
pen to think this through?"

No one is going to fault you for taking some time to get centered and put
your thoughts in order. In practice, programmers do it all the time. Taking
charge of the situation like this in front of equally nervous interviewers
will only say good things about your ability to work under pressure.

There's a lot more to be said about successfully interviewing (short
version: make the conversation about the interviewer and their problems
rather than about you, I try to aim for me doing 40% of the talking at
most) but to start with I think there's a lot of value in shifting your
attitude from being lead to leading the interaction.

-Ali

P.S. In this market I find it very difficult to believe you will be looking
for a job for very long. I would wish you good luck, but you're probably
not going to need it!


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Najaf Ali <ali at happybearsoftware.com>
 wrote:

> Hi Anthony,
>
> Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into this jobhunt so I hope you'll
> be able to see some value in the advice below. I've experienced all of the
> above and worse but so far have only had one interview where the
> interviewer rejected me (but have had quite a few where I rejected the
> interviewer or got the offer but had no availability).
>
> On Feedback:
>
> People not getting back to you feedback is in no way deliberate. In the
> vast majority of cases, other candidates, the boss's coffee, client work,
> meetings etc get in the way and whoever's been put in charge of recruitment
> filing doesn't get around to dropping you an apologetic and carefully
> worded note saying that they're sorry but you're not what they're looking
> for at the moment. You can get upset and take offense at this if you like,
> or you could just follow up.
>
> I have a pretty regimented follow-up process. After a meeting (be it over
> skype, phone or in person) they get an email summarising the interaction
> and attempting to arrange a next action. If there's no response to that,
> they get another email after three days, a phone call a week after that
> (that actually gets through), and that's when they're taken off the
> potential leads list.
>
> I'm not suggesting you follow a similar method, but taking ownership of
> the follow-up process at the very least removes uncertainty about how you
> should proceed with potential hirers (e.g. "I gave them a week to get back
> after I followed up, they didn't, so as far as I'm concerned it's a no-go").
>
> On Interviewing in General:
>
> As explained in other responses, most people are worse at interviewing
> than you are at giving interviews. Your task in an interview is *not* to
> jump through whatever arbitrary hoops an interview puts in front of you:
> it's to give them so many excuses to hire you that it would seem ridiculous
> not to give you an offer, no matter what the format of the interview is.
>
> In your example, they put you in front of an unfamiliar computer, with
> unfamiliar tools and a problem you (I think) were unsure about the solution
> to. Jumping straight into that is a battle you couldn't possibly have won,
> and I think you knew it at the time. The interviewers were probably as
> nervous as you about the whole engagement, so taking charge of the
> situation would have made things more pleasant for everyone. You could have
> said:
>
> "OK guys, I'm not completely comfortable with Textmate and using Macs in
> general, so if it's OK with you I'm going to take a few minutes on my own
> to get familiar with the development environment."
>
> And later:
>
> "Would you (the programmer you weren't pairing with) be so kind as to
> stand behind me instead of sitting so close? It's nothing personal, it's
> just that being sandwiched in here between the two of you is making me a
> little uncomfortable".
>
> If you got stuck with the problem, got nervous and started stumbling:
>
> "Would it be alright if I took a few minutes on my own with a notepad and
> pen to think this through?"
>
> No one is going to fault you for taking some time to get centered and put
> your thoughts in order. In practice, programmers do it all the time. Taking
> charge of the situation like this in front of equally nervous interviewers
> will only say good things about your ability to work under pressure.
>
> There's a lot more to be said about successfully interviewing (short
> version: make the conversation about the interviewer and their problems
> rather than about you, I try to aim for me doing 40% of the talking at
> most) but to start with I think there's a lot of value in shifting your
> attitude from being lead to leading the interaction.
>
> -Ali
>
> P.S. In this market I find it very difficult to believe you will be
> looking for a job for very long. I would wish you good luck, but you're
> probably not going to need it!
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Anthony Gardner <notantspants at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
>> Sept 16th: I sent an initial email to LRUG looking for advice on how to
>> go about looking for a job (which agencies etc.) as I am currently living
>> in Holland but will be returning to the UK. I had a great response and made
>> contact with a few companies that interested me.
>>
>> First company: after a few emails, I was waiting for a response to an
>> email when I finally chased them up as to whether they had received it.
>> They eventually got back to me and explained they had already filled the
>> position and apologised for not getting back to me and leaving me waiting.
>> For leaving me waiting, they said "[they] know it's really annoying when
>> companies do that!"
>>
>> Little did I know what was in store for me in the coming months with
>> regard to being left waiting.
>>
>> Second company: After making contact with them from Holland, we agreed to
>> meet when I was over in London. We finally met for a coffee close to the
>> City and had an hour long chat but I never heard anything back from them.
>>
>> Third company: After making contact with them from Holland, we agreed to
>> meet when I was over in London. We finally met for a coffee close to the
>> City and after an hour long chat, he asked me to send them some code
>> examples and they would arrange for me to do a remote test where they could
>> monitor how I work. I sent them some code examples the next day and heard
>> nothing more from them.
>>
>> Fourth company: After making contact with them from Holland, they asked
>> me to do a remote test. Based on the result of that test, we had an
>> informal telephone interview and based on that, they asked me to come to
>> their offices for a face-to-face.
>>
>> I arrived on time for the interview and that was a s good as it got. I
>> was walked into an office by the guy who finally came to get me from
>> reception, and there was a laptop on the table and another guy standing
>> next to it.
>>
>> I was told that I was at the computer and that we were going to add to
>> the program I had sent them a month earlier. I was sandwiched between these
>> two guys and doing my first ever pair programming, using my first ever Mac,
>> and using Text Mate for the first time.
>>
>> To say it was a complete and utter disaster would be an understatement.
>> Not only could I not use the keyboard, the test coverage I sent them only
>> covered the bits they were specific about in the test. I deleted all other
>> tests which I would now need!! After 30mins of me faffing around, and
>> trembling, and a blank mind and a total bag of nerves, we decided to call
>> it a day. They offered to reschedule the interview but I said to them that
>> if they wanted to email me tomorrow with a thanks but no thanks, then I was
>> happy with that. They sent me the Thanks but no thanks email and I was okay
>> with that.
>>
>> Surely putting people at ease is an important aspect of interviews.
>> Drinking a coffee, show them around a bit, explain what the next 2 hours
>> would have in store, chew the fat, get to know each other. But no, let's
>> sandwich this guy on a computer and get him working. I don't want to work
>> for a company that does that.
>>
>> First agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work,
>> I heard a lot of "cool" and "awesome" but nothing else. He said he would
>> send me some jobs through and even after I chased him up, I heard nothing
>> back.
>>
>> Second agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby
>> work, I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and
>> that he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS
>> Doc file.
>>
>> He did put me forward for a top job which I knew was totally out of my
>> league but fortunately it never came off as they had filled the position.
>> But I didn't hear anything else from him. And still haven't.
>>
>> So LRUGers, I have some questions for you. Firstly, is it normal for
>> companies not to get back to you. I was severely disappointed with that
>> behaviour.
>>
>> Pair programming: I am totally upfront with my experience with Rails and
>> the fact that I haven't used it in industry, so no pair programming
>> experience for me. What am I to do if companies insist on a pair
>> programming exercise or just looking over my shoulder while I code. That
>> really would not bring out the best of me as I would be a bag of nerves.
>> Particularly after my first experience of doing that in an interview
>> environment.
>>
>> I think pair programming sounds like a good idea but for a test
>> interview, it wouldn't suit me. I would really have to feel comfortable and
>> know the people I'm doing it with.
>>
>> What tips can you give me for finding the right job?
>>
>> I have since been offered a job here in Holland but I have turned it down
>> as I am returning to the UK in December - even though I don't have a job.
>> So I am employable and I will renew my efforts in the New Year. But if it's
>> more of the same, then I'm not hopeful for the future.
>>
>> -Anthony
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Chat mailing list
>> Chat at lists.lrug.org
>> http://lists.lrug.org/**listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org<http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org>
>>
>
>


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Anthony Gardner <notantspants at gmail.com>wrote:

> Sept 16th: I sent an initial email to LRUG looking for advice on how to go
> about looking for a job (which agencies etc.) as I am currently living in
> Holland but will be returning to the UK. I had a great response and made
> contact with a few companies that interested me.
>
> First company: after a few emails, I was waiting for a response to an
> email when I finally chased them up as to whether they had received it.
> They eventually got back to me and explained they had already filled the
> position and apologised for not getting back to me and leaving me waiting.
> For leaving me waiting, they said "[they] know it's really annoying when
> companies do that!"
>
> Little did I know what was in store for me in the coming months with
> regard to being left waiting.
>
> Second company: After making contact with them from Holland, we agreed to
> meet when I was over in London. We finally met for a coffee close to the
> City and had an hour long chat but I never heard anything back from them.
>
> Third company: After making contact with them from Holland, we agreed to
> meet when I was over in London. We finally met for a coffee close to the
> City and after an hour long chat, he asked me to send them some code
> examples and they would arrange for me to do a remote test where they could
> monitor how I work. I sent them some code examples the next day and heard
> nothing more from them.
>
> Fourth company: After making contact with them from Holland, they asked me
> to do a remote test. Based on the result of that test, we had an informal
> telephone interview and based on that, they asked me to come to their
> offices for a face-to-face.
>
> I arrived on time for the interview and that was a s good as it got. I was
> walked into an office by the guy who finally came to get me from reception,
> and there was a laptop on the table and another guy standing next to it.
>
> I was told that I was at the computer and that we were going to add to the
> program I had sent them a month earlier. I was sandwiched between these two
> guys and doing my first ever pair programming, using my first ever Mac, and
> using Text Mate for the first time.
>
> To say it was a complete and utter disaster would be an understatement.
> Not only could I not use the keyboard, the test coverage I sent them only
> covered the bits they were specific about in the test. I deleted all other
> tests which I would now need!! After 30mins of me faffing around, and
> trembling, and a blank mind and a total bag of nerves, we decided to call
> it a day. They offered to reschedule the interview but I said to them that
> if they wanted to email me tomorrow with a thanks but no thanks, then I was
> happy with that. They sent me the Thanks but no thanks email and I was okay
> with that.
>
> Surely putting people at ease is an important aspect of interviews.
> Drinking a coffee, show them around a bit, explain what the next 2 hours
> would have in store, chew the fat, get to know each other. But no, let's
> sandwich this guy on a computer and get him working. I don't want to work
> for a company that does that.
>
> First agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work,
> I heard a lot of "cool" and "awesome" but nothing else. He said he would
> send me some jobs through and even after I chased him up, I heard nothing
> back.
>
> Second agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work,
> I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that
> he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc
> file.
>
> He did put me forward for a top job which I knew was totally out of my
> league but fortunately it never came off as they had filled the position.
> But I didn't hear anything else from him. And still haven't.
>
> So LRUGers, I have some questions for you. Firstly, is it normal for
> companies not to get back to you. I was severely disappointed with that
> behaviour.
>
> Pair programming: I am totally upfront with my experience with Rails and
> the fact that I haven't used it in industry, so no pair programming
> experience for me. What am I to do if companies insist on a pair
> programming exercise or just looking over my shoulder while I code. That
> really would not bring out the best of me as I would be a bag of nerves.
> Particularly after my first experience of doing that in an interview
> environment.
>
> I think pair programming sounds like a good idea but for a test interview,
> it wouldn't suit me. I would really have to feel comfortable and know the
> people I'm doing it with.
>
> What tips can you give me for finding the right job?
>
> I have since been offered a job here in Holland but I have turned it down
> as I am returning to the UK in December - even though I don't have a job.
> So I am employable and I will renew my efforts in the New Year. But if it's
> more of the same, then I'm not hopeful for the future.
>
> -Anthony
> ______________________________**_________________
> Chat mailing list
> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> http://lists.lrug.org/**listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org<http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org>
>
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