[LRUG] Juniors

Thu May 22 09:58:54 PDT 2014

Great discussion so far. As someone who has worked in the junior dev 
training sector for over a year, I thought I would share my experiences 
in addressing this problem.

Junior developers find themselves in a catch-22: they can't get a job 
without experience, and they can't get experience without a job. 
Understandably, dev companies set their entry requirements high when 
advertising a position, in order to obtain competent staff.

However, being a competent web developer is not necessarily the same 
thing as having 2-3 years experience. In fact, trying to incorporate a 
developer with 2 years of say PHP experience into a Ruby team practising 
TDD might be just as challenging, if not more so, than taking on 
somebody more green and showing them your approach from first 
principles. So I think that dev companies must be open minded to 
entry-level talent if they are to break this loop. On the other hand, as 
has already been pointed out, this process is costly and risky; and even 
with a lot of good intentions not every developer is capable of being a 
good teacher, or has the time to break-off from front-line work to teach.

Since September last year, I have tried to address this issue with my 
own project called We Got Coders. I have been taking on junior 
developers in my consultancy to teach them web development and then find 
them jobs, on which we pair program together. My approach aims to 
address the main concerns that employers have with taking on new 
juniors, by providing a low-risk way for employers to trial a junior for 
their ability and their culture-fit, before making the commitment to a 
permanent position. I aim to get someone to the point that I'm prepared 
to hire and vouch for them after three months of training, whereupon I 
hire the developer (i.e. they get paid; pretty essential I think), I 
find clients looking to take on developers and work with them on a 
contract basis, then mentor the trainee over a further three month 
period to help make the transition work.

I have worked with four junior developers over the last six months on 
this basis, and as a result, all four found permanent positions working 
as Ruby developers. I have a case study from one of my clients as to 
their rationale for working along these lines: http://wegotcoders.tumblr.com

Going forward I'm looking to expand the concept and take on more 
trainees and drive down the up-front costs. I've started to work with 
graduates, who don't pay for any training, but instead work for me 
directly on a longer-term basis, where we will work on longer-term 
contracts, in-house work or open-source projects. I've currently got 
five trainees who will be available in July. If you are interested in 
hearing more about us, please drop me a line.

Dan

P.S. As someone who has previously worked at GA, I can assure you that 
the sniping at them is unjustified. Many of my GA trainees walked 
straight into jobs; some needed more study time. The results of a 
3-month bootcamp largely depend on who the instructor is and who the 
student is, and the experience level of both, regardless of whose logo 
is above the door. Everyone learns at their own speeds and there is no 
magic bullet.

On 21/05/14 22:44, chat-request at lists.lrug.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Juniors (Tommy Palmer)
>     2. Re: Juniors (Michael Pavling)
>     3. Re: Juniors (louisror at gmail.com)
>     4. Re: Juniors (Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd)
>     5. Re: Juniors (George Drummond)
>     6. Re: Juniors (Ed Lepedus)
>     7. Re: Juniors (Matthew Rudy Jacobs)
>     8. Re: Juniors (Brendan Murphy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:10:39 +0100
> From: Tommy Palmer <hi at tommyp.org>
> To: Najaf Ali <ali at happybearsoftware.com>
> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID: <A884A48973024100B72E239465CD7163 at tommyp.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I feel like I should weigh in on this topic as I?m a Junior Developer at GDS.
>
> I got offered a part time (hourly paid) internship before finishing Uni back home in Belfast with a local freelancer who had too much work on. I had very little knowledge of Ruby beyond programming concepts, but I had a fair bit of front end knowledge and studied Interactive Design. After 3 months, I joined a small, local agency that we merged with.
>
> I worked there on various small projects and had a few years under my belt, but applied as a Junior to GDS as my experience with large scale projects was practically nil and I?d spent the last 2 years only picking up one senior dev?s bad habits, rather than multiple ones.
>
> As far as I can see, a Junior Dev should have decent fraction of the knowledge their non-Junior devs have, but lacking the experience that comes with working on more complicated and larger projects. Pairing helps with that, as does the patience of other developers. Being a Junior at a big organisation, or a Junior working on large scale/audience projects appears to require more knowledge than being a Junior at something like a small agency.
>
> The job ad specifically mentioned that it would be a good fit for those that have never worked on anything big, so maybe the definition of Junior might be a sliding scale, depending on where you are?
>
> Tommy
>
> --
> Tommy Palmer
> @tommypalm
> http://tommyp.org/
>
>
> On Wednesday, 21 May 2014 at 16:57, Najaf Ali wrote:
>
>> Glad you asked! Quite a few people who've read this email me about how they used it to find them their first job: http://happybearsoftware.com/kickstart-your-developer-career
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Marc Burt <marc.burt at gmail.com (mailto:marc.burt at gmail.com)> wrote:
>>> Since it's on topic,
>>>
>>> I'm one of these new Juniors (London unfortunately Ian) and have just started looking for my first job - I've been self-training for the past 6 months through on-line courses.
>>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone have advice on what I should be doing to maximise my chances of finding somewhere soon?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21 May 2014 16:41, Ian Moss <hello at ianmoss.com (mailto:hello at ianmoss.com)> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I've just started reaching out to 2nd and 3rd year Computer Science /
>>>> Software Engineering students in Manchester to get involved with 196
>>>> destinations on a contributory / for experience basis. Pleasantly
>>>> surprised with getting 5 or so interested, given I've not had much
>>>> response from local experienced rubyists, who are happy with their day
>>>> rate, rather than taking a big risk on a startup. (Understood).
>>>>
>>>> If any of your juniors are in the Manchester area and want to get
>>>> involved on a similar basis, then it'd be great to hear from them. A
>>>> real opportunity to help shape a new company :)
>>>>
>>>> Front-end developers as well as server-side specialists are needed.
>>>> (Ideally with a love of travel, and a team orientated sociable outlook).
>>>>
>>>> We're an early days startup, with a partnership with several big travel
>>>> companies in place. Pre-revenue & pre-investment, but lots of potential,
>>>> with the right help.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ian Moss
>>>> http://196destinations.com - capturing your travel dreams & helping you
>>>> get on the plane!
>>>> http://twitter.com/oceanician // http://startupdigest.com/manchester  //
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/alteris //
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original message -----
>>>> From: Thayer Prime <thayer at team-prime.com (mailto:thayer at team-prime.com)>
>>>> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:chat at lists.lrug.org)>
>>>> Subject: [LRUG] Juniors
>>>> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:22:07 +0100
>>>>
>>>> Hi LRUG
>>>>
>>>> I often come across juniors in my work (few a month), and almost none
>>>> of my clients ever want junior ruby developers, I get like 1-2 junior
>>>> roles in a team once or twice a year, sadly. And even then they're
>>>> often "juniors" that must have 2 years exp and a PHD and and and ;-)
>>>>
>>>> If any of you ever do want juniors (and I mean 0-1 years experience
>>>> types), drop me a line. If I have any at the time you're welcome to
>>>> them free of charge as I'd really like to help more juniors get into
>>>> our industry.
>>>>
>>>> Seems strange that there's so much talk about skills shortages and yet
>>>> not many companies seem prepared to train their own. *shrug*
>>>>
>>>> Thayer
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Thayer Prime
>>>> --------------------
>>>> CEO & Founder
>>>> Team Prime Ltd
>>>> http://www.team-prime.com
>>>>
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/thayerprime
>>>> http://www.thayerprime.com
>>>> @Thayer
>>>> _______________________________________________
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> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:04:14 +0100
> From: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID:
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> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>   the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately employable.
>>
>
> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my experience
> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no corporate axe
> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment stats
> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year, and the
> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets' that
> run at the end of each course.
>
>>From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are very
> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that assertion
> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
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> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:45:07 +0100
> From: louisror at gmail.com
> To: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>, chat at lists.lrug.org
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID: <20140521174507.5906577.75223.28376 at gmail.com>
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> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:36:29 -0700
> From: "Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd" <glenn at rubypond.com>
> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAJVSNSyZn9=D8rtntHbYCSM+A9QP4vqhC_oCEFiTN6a70tn_9Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>> I can't speak for everyone but my experience is that while the boot camps
>> provide an excellent introduction to web development, the developers they
>> produce are often not immediately employable.
>>
>
> We've hired 2 developers from Hackbright recently, so admittedly my
> experience is limited to that one program. Both have been able to
> independently ship new product features and major refactorings within 2
> months after mentoring and guidance. Hackbright is a Python based
> curriculum so the on the job training has also meant learning Ruby and Go
> which are the primary languages in use at Heroku.
>
> It's a really small sample but I think the success has mostly been on the
> back of two factors (in order of impact):
>
> - I think most of the success of Hackbright isn't in the curriculum but in
> a rigorous selection and qualification process. The graduates appear to
> have degrees in other fields and all of them have shown an aptitude to
> learn new complex ideas really quickly.
> - We've been fortunate to have a handful of colleagues who are good
> mentors, with just enough slack.
>
> Expecting any junior to be immediately productive within the first week is
> naive but we're not talking a year of being in the wilderness either. The
> perceived risks can be mitigated with some focussed upfront effort on the
> part of the new employer. And with a developer facing product we've had the
> added benefit of being able to witness first hand the problems a junior dev
> has using our tools, and we've empowered them to do something about it.
> It's more than justified the effort just to get the empathy for this
> perspective.
>
> G
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> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "George Drummond" <georgedrummond at gmail.com>
> To: "Michael Pavling" <pavling at gmail.com>
> Cc: chat at lists.lrug.org
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID: <1400697618187.3cdfdadb at Nodemailer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> In my experience, "Graduates" of GA type courses leave with a very elementary knowledge in rails/testing/development and hugely inflated expectations of how valuable they are as developers.?
>
>
> How much can one really learn in 8 weeks from an unaccredited course taught by self proclaimed educators? I also feel the "graduate" label they like to throw around is completely bogus and only clever marketing to quantify their extremely high course fees from an unlicensed educational establishment.
>
>
>
>
> One good thing GA does do is encourage open source contributions. The first thing I generally do when receiving a speculative email from a candidate is check out their GitHub. For me this is a very powerful indicator to their experience, commitment and skill set. Another important thing for me is if they have any interesting personal projects.?
>
>
>
>
> Unpaid internships are totally unethical but at least you aren't paying thousands for a phony qualification.?
>
>
>
>
> The minimum wage is a right everyone in this country shares and businesses should not be exploiting people asking them to do work for free.?
>
>
>
>
> The best engineers I've worked with are either self taught or university graduates. Maybe one day I'll meet a brilliant GA graduate but I'm still waiting for that to happen.
>
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>   the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately employable.
>>>
>> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my experience
>> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no corporate axe
>> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment stats
>> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year, and the
>> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets' that
>> run at the end of each course.
>>  From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are very
>> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that assertion
>> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
>> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
>> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
>> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
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> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:01:05 +0100
> From: Ed Lepedus <ed.lepedus at googlemail.com>
> To: chat at lists.lrug.org
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID: <BF141031-3656-45D4-AB17-53899B1B0425 at googlemail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I'm not the most qualified to give an opinion on this - I certainly have never hired anyone - but I think some observations from the other side of the fence might help inform the discussion.
>
> Firstly, the word 'junior' has been thrown about so much as to be utterly meaningless. The difference between a keen amateur, someone who has a couple of years experience but just 'fell into it', a CS graduate who just scraped a 2:1 and a top-of-class 2nd year undergraduate is HUGE. Yet they all fall into the same category.
>
> For example, I am a mature student about to embark on a year-long industrial placement as part of my CS degree at Kent. Over the last couple of years I've made a point of getting to know as many of the 400 or so students in the School of Computing, and I can tell you they can be worlds apart - even within the same university studying the same course. I know Stage 2 students who have set up their own businesses or have created multiple cross-platform games on their own from concept to app-store, and others who have the likes of Goldman Sachs and CISCO in California competing to offer them industrial placements. I know final-year students who can't set up their machines to use SVN, while others have built Erlang IDEs for their final year project.
>
> This is all within a single university, and all these people would be considered 'junior', along with others from different courses at different universities, or people with no qualifications or experience etc.
>
> By far the best thing we, as an industry, can do is abandon the label, and look at the individuals. Take fifteen minutes out of your day to have a chat on the phone. Sure, you'll find a lot of people who do this because the 'like computer games', but you will also find many others who will blow your socks off.
>
> Also, keep this in mind when offering unpaid, or minimum-wage positions: the best candidates (i.e: the ones you probably want) will have options, and no matter how much they like you, will struggle to justify taking 10-15k less just so they can work for you.
>
> If you are in central London and offering 15k (yes, I'm not making this up), you will probably not attract the best candidates, and might be tempted to think that there are no decent juniors about, when in fact, they simply aren't wasting their time with your advert.
>
> I hope my candor doesn't offend - I've found this whole discussion very interesting.
>
> Best,
> Ed
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:52:17 +0100
> From: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAADxtW9d3mwK7pd05qj=dpW0bJa5AB9LYtcPY3g0HS50cLK54Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
>
> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework in
> Uni,
> but I had no idea of real world development.
>
> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and
> talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped me
> on.
>
> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn Rails"
>
> And I did.
>
> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web development
> with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
>
> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
>
> Real world development is different, of course.
>
> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12 weeks
> training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
>
> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before they
> turn on you and demand a daily rate.
>
> Everyone has to start somewhere!
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> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:47:21 +0100
> From: Brendan Murphy <brendan at enthuse.me>
> To: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> Message-ID: <1F9432D2-7EDE-43D0-9441-C0CB1269AE93 at enthuse.me>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> +1 rudy :-)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 21 May 2014, at 20:52, Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
>>
>> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework in Uni,
>> but I had no idea of real world development.
>>
>> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped me on.
>>
>> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn Rails"
>>
>> And I did.
>>
>> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web development with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
>>
>> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
>>
>> Real world development is different, of course.
>>
>> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12 weeks training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
>>
>> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before they turn on you and demand a daily rate.
>>
>> Everyone has to start somewhere!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chat mailing list
>> Chat at lists.lrug.org
>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
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