<html><head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Thanks, Tom....didn't know
that, good to know :-)<br>
<br>
<blockquote style="border: 0px none;"
cite="mid:865B033F-2ED5-4B14-AFFA-6831565EBD54@codon.com" type="cite">
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tom@codon.com"
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<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">28 July 2014
09:30</span></font></div></div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div><!----><br>To clarify, the
`feature`/`scenario` syntax (actually just aliases for `describe`/`it`)
is a feature of Capybara:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/jnicklas/capybara/blob/304e2fb/lib/capybara/rspec/features.rb#L11-L12">https://github.com/jnicklas/capybara/blob/304e2fb/lib/capybara/rspec/features.rb#L11-L12</a><br><br>What
rspec-rails calls “feature specs” are vanilla RSpec example groups with
standard Rails spec helpers and Capybara setup included. If you don’t
want to use Capybara (or indeed Rails), there’s no reason to use feature
specs (or indeed rspec-rails) at all.<br><br>If all you want is to be
able to write `feature`/`scenario` instead of `describe`/`it`, just put
`config.alias_example_group_to :feature` and `config.alias_example_to
:scenario` in your spec_helper.<br><br>(Or use Cucumber! :D)<br><br>Cheers,<br>-Tom<br>_______________________________________________<br>Chat
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<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">26 July 2014
15:51</span></font></div></div></div>
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I've had very similar
conversations with quite a lot of Ruby developers on this topic. I agree
with the sentiment that cucumber can work well, and I'd advocate the
approaches suggested.<br>
<br>
But the majority of Ruby developers, I've either interviewed or worked
with, much prefer RSpec. Of all the arguments against I've heard, these
are the typical ones (some of these already mentioned on this thread):<br>
<br>
1). cucumber is slow<br>
<br>
99% of the time what they are referring to turns out to be the
implementation of tests being slow not the framework itself<br>
<br>
2). cucumber is bloated<br>
<br>
probably a fair criticism. RSpec isn't compact either but there has been
acknowledgement of this problem from cucumber contributors
(<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.mattwynne.net/2012/04/26/a-vision-for-cucumber-2-0/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://blog.mattwynne.net/2012/04/26/a-vision-for-cucumber-2-0/</a>
and
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21msg/cukes/a6KmuoWiCJE/M_s7uIgNDW0J"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/cukes/a6KmuoWiCJE/M_s7uIgNDW0J</a>).
It seems like something that is there to be addressed though & on
the roadmap, although it will take some time.<br>
<br>
3). product owners never end up reading or contributing to cucumber
tests, so why bother with gherkin<br>
<br>
even if this is the case, there's value in clearly specifying the key
features of any application using domain language. This way any new
developer or other team member can grasp this without knowing the code.
>From my experience, it is possible to get product owners
contributing,
even it takes a bit of work to make it easy for them. With initiatives
like <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://cucumber.pro/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://cucumber.pro/</a> and <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.relishapp.com/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.relishapp.com/</a>, who knows
it
might get easier.<br>
<br>
The patterns for RSpec discussed improve readability, and are something
I'd go for if working on feature/request specs, but (in my opinion) it's
still not quite up there with a plain text scenario. You can also use a
DSL provided by libraries like turnip, which gives you the opportunity
to use a gherkin syntax in RSpec though.<br>
<br>
4). why have two test frameworks?<br>
<br>
if you keep your test logic in pure ruby code like people have
mentioned, you can: <br>
- share helpers across RSpec and cucumber relatively easily (if you want
to); <br>
- establish some common standards and patterns; <br>
- have test code that any ruby developer can read, in both suites. <br>
<br>
It can be useful to separate acceptance/end-to-end tests and lower-level
unit & component tests e.g. if the acceptance tests need different
setup such as background workers running, search indexes populated, etc.
Doing this for all tests might be unnecessarily slow your lower-level
test down if those are all you need to run. Depends on the codebase
& the team, I guess.<br>
<br>
You can use RSpec metadata and request types to separate these concerns
too; it's a bit more fiddly.<br>
<br>
5). regexes and step definitions are much less readable than method
calls with parameters<br>
<br>
something picked up on already, and something I can understand. But as
people have pointed out, there are patterns you can apply that make this
less of an issue. The ideas in turnip around improving this are
definitely interesting though.<br>
<br>
<br>
Aside from all these points, a couple of other relevant things I've come
across on the topic:<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://myronmars.to/n/dev-blog/2013/07/the-plan-for-rspec-3"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://myronmars.to/n/dev-blog/2013/07/the-plan-for-rspec-3</a>
- a
blog post from a core RSpec contributor with this quote: </li>
</ul>
<br>
"RSpec originated in a time before the existence of Cucumber/Gherkin,
and one of its early goals was to express things in natural language
that a project stakeholder could understand. In those early days, an
expression like team.should have(9).players made sense for the goals of
the project. Since then, Cucumber/Gherkin have emerged as a better
alternative for stakeholder-focused tests, and RSpec is rarely used for
that purpose today."<br>
<br>
RSpec uses cucumber to produce exectuable specs for its own codebase
(<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://relishapp.com/rspec"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://relishapp.com/rspec</a>); could be
a sign that it'll have more
focus on supporting testing at the unit & component level going
forward?<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.mattwynne.net/2012/04/26/a-vision-for-cucumber-2-0/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://blog.mattwynne.net/2012/04/26/a-vision-for-cucumber-2-0/</a>
- a
blog post from a core cucumber contributor</li>
</ul>
<br>
This references the original developer of Turnip, saying 'Using RSpec as
the runner for Turnip hasn’t worked out so well.' Would love to know
more about why and whether this is still the case.<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li>For some reason you have to add capybara to your gemfile to use
the feature/scenario syntax in RSpec feature specs. I work on a lot of
APIs, so really don't need capybara as a dependency.</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>In Cucumber, I don't think the approach of adding modules to the
World object is clean way to reuse code. It makes them accessible in all
step definitions without namespacing. It does seem to be the most
documented approach though. I generally leave my ruby code in the
support folder and just access it within the step definitions using the
fully-qualified names.</li>
</ul>
<br>
Both frameworks have their pros & cons. Personally, I prefer
Cucumber over RSpec feature & request specs. as has no doubt come
across. But, the overwhelming resistance to cucumber within the
community is difficult to ignore. For now, I remain unconvinced by a lot
of the arguments against Cucumber. <br>
<br>
I should say though, both are great libraries & I'm definitely very
grateful to their contributors!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">26 July 2014
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<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div><!----><br>Brilliant!
Somehow I never realised that. Despite having a version of<br>vim-cucumber
*that actually supports jumping*, I was absolutely sure<br>that it
wasn't possible. And absolutely wrong.<br><br>Paul.<br>_______________________________________________<br>Chat
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<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">26 July 2014
12:32</span></font></div></div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color:
rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;" id="bloop_customfont">On
26 July 2014 at 12:30:13, Paul Battley (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pbattley@gmail.com">pbattley@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</div> <p>Cucumber-vim
supports jumping to step definitions with ctrl-].</p><p>Kerry</p><div>_______________________________________________<br>Chat
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:pbattley@gmail.com"
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<font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">26 July 2014
12:30</span></font></div></div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div><!----><br>All other
considerations aside, I find that the use of string matching<br>for
dispatch is an inconvenience when working with Cucumber. In my<br>editor[1],
I can go straight to the definition of a method just by<br>pressing a
key combo[2], which really helps in navigating unfamiliar<br>code. With
Cucumber, I have to use a lucky guess or just grep for a<br>distinctive
bit of the string.<br><br>Of course, *I* always put my own definitions
in sensible places etc.<br>etc., but in reality most projects are
collaborative and even though<br>all our collaborators are intelligent
and well-meaning people, we<br>don't all think in exactly the same way.<br><br>Perhaps
it's just a tooling problem - perhaps it's already been solved<br>and
I'm just blissfully ignorant! - but I do think that Cucumber's<br>string
matching presents a concrete difficulty, especially on larger<br>projects
and teams, and I think that this problem exists regardless of<br>any
overuse of parameters within regular expressions.<br><br>Paul.<br><br>1.
Vim with ctags and Ctrl-].<br>2. Unless someone's taken the
metaprogramming too far, of course.<br>_______________________________________________<br>Chat
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<div class="moz-signature"><br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px"><div
style="margin:0px"><font color="#444444"><b>Will Thomas<br>
</b></font></div><div style="margin:0px"><span
style="letter-spacing:0px"><font color="#444444">Senior Engineer<br>
</font></span></div>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;margin:0px">
<span style="letter-spacing:0px"><font color="#444444"><br></font></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;margin:0px"><font
color="#444444"><span style="letter-spacing:0px">The App Business</span><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px"><div
style="font-size:medium;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="margin:0px"><div
style="font-size:12px;margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px"><div
style="margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px">
<div style="margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px"><div
style="margin:0px"><span style="letter-spacing:0px"><font
color="#444444"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt; color: rgb(68,
68, 68);"><span __postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;
text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(68, 68, 68);"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">20-24</span></span></span></span>
Broadwick Street</font></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span
style="letter-spacing:0px"><font color="#444444">London W1F <span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">8HT</span></span></span></span></font></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><span style="letter-spacing:0px"><a
value="+442036579785" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font color="#444444"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">+44</span></span></span></span>
203 657 9785</font></a></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><a
href="http://www.theappbusiness.com/" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">www.theappbusiness.com</font></a></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><span style="letter-spacing:0px"><font
color="#444444"><br></font></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><a
href="http://www.theappbusiness.com/careers/" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Join the team: we're now 75+ strong and growing fast</font></a></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px"><a
href="http://www.thedrum.com/digital-census/2013" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">The Drum Census 2013: ranked UK No.1 with <span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">1-50</span></span>
staff</font></a></div></div>
</div><div><font color="#444444"><br></font></div><div><font
color="#444444">Check out our latest thinking in our </font><a
href="http://www.theappbusiness.com/journal/" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">journal</font></a><font color="#444444"> and follow us
on: </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><div style="margin:0px"><a
href="http://twitter.com/theappbusiness" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Twitter</font></a><font color="#444444"> • </font><a
href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/the-app-business" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">LinkedIn</font></a><font color="#444444"> • </font><a
href="http://www.google.com/+TheappbusinessTAB" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Google+</font></a><font color="#444444"> • </font><a
href="http://dribbble.com/theappbusiness" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Dribbble</font></a><font color="#444444"> • </font><a
href="http://instagram.com/theappbusiness" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Instagram</font></a><font color="#444444"> • </font><a
href="http://www.facebook.com/theappbusiness" target="_blank"><font
color="#ff4400">Facebook</font></a></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><font
color="#444444" size="1"><br></font></div><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><font color="#444444" size="1"><br></font></div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><font color="#444444" size="1">The App
Business Limited is a company registered in England and Wales</font></div><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><font color="#444444" size="1">Registered
number: 01897720</font></div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><font color="#444444" size="1">Office
location: <span __postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">20-24</span></span></span></span>
Broadwick Street, London, United Kingdom, W1F <span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;"><span
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-date"
class="__postbox-detected-content __postbox-detected-date"
style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0pt;">8HT</span></span></span></span></font></div></div>
</div>
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