[LRUG] Suggestion

Wed Feb 12 15:58:21 PST 2014

I generally avoid adding any opinions to debates like these, it almost
never ends well. What makes this debate different is that I was there, I
paid attention to the context, to the intonation and to the reactions
surrounding that question. If I'm totally honest, the same question was in
my thoughts, but never thought to put it out there as the answer didn't
really matter. What mattered was that I was genuinely impressed by the
depth of your knowledge Alice in a subject which is so remote to our
mundane "developer thoughts" that it was fascinating. Through you, for 6
minutes, my attention was drawn to something that I knew nothing about. I
was impressed that someone coding Ruby for a living has gathered so much
knowledge in a subject that had nothing to do with Ruby. Based on the
surprise which I have detected in the person's voice that was unfortunate
enough to ask this question, I dare say that he shared the same fascination.

Whenever I hear Chad speak, I cannot help thinking "Are **you** a developer
Chad?". His inclination towards music make him so different from almost
every Ruby developer that I know, his knowledge on the subject make his
talks stand out from everyone else's.

It's good to get down from our ivory tower and try seeing things for what
they are, to put things plainly, with no bullshit and no fear of being
judged or publicly ridiculed. Let me start:

Alice, your talk was so different from everyone else's that it's difficult
for me to believe that you are a Ruby developer. I wish more developers in
general - me including - would be inspired by your unconventional talk and
spice up their programming knowledge with knowledge from other fields of
science. Well done, you remind me of Chad Fowler : )

Gerhard

------------------------------
Twitter <http://twitter.com/#!/gerhardlazu> Github<https://github.com/gerhard>
 Blog <http://gerhard.lazu.co.uk/>

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:17 PM, Alice Bartlett
<alice.bartlett at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello,
>
> ack, sorry I feel really weird about this. I'd quite like for this all to
> go away, and I'm a bit worried it's not going to, so here are some things:
>
> 1) This is minor. Like, I'm not mad, I don't even feel sad about this. I
> stood up and gave a talk that wasn't about ruby at LRUG because I thought
> it was interesting and I had a great time doing it. I was maybe a bit
> disappointed that the first question was "are you a ruby developer?". It
> could have been interpreted as "why are you here?" but I don't think it was
> meant that way. I was there, I looked at that guy and I thought "here is a
> genuinely curious person who is a bit confused about why I stood up and
> gave a talk about something completely un-programming related".
>
> 2) That question was sexist if you think that swapping me out with a man
> would not have resulted in the question being asked. I personally think
> this is the case, but there is no way to prove it. I've been going to
> various tech meetups for about six years, and I've been asked whose
> girlfriend I am or if I'm a designer, or a recruiter enough times to know
> that, yeah, a lot of people don't think I look like a developer, in fact
> they don't really think at all. And that's OK, we're all humans, swimming
> around in our cognitive biases, it's cool. I make these kinds of mistakes
> all the time and I'm actually *trying* to not be exclusionary through
> behaviours and language.
>
>
> On 12 Feb 2014, at 22:28, Aanand Prasad <aanand.prasad at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To be clear, I was drawing an analogy to the "are you a Ruby developer?"
> question, not the proposed "everyone here is a developer" assumption.
>
> I'm not advocating blanket assumptions - I'm advocating being careful
> around asking questions which might have othering effects.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Warren Guy <warren at guy.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Aanand Prasad wrote:
>> >> I will admit that I did ask this question at least a couple of times,
>> and I am truly sorry if that bothered or offended anyone.
>> ...
>> > The effect, in aggregate, of having this conversation again and again
>> is harmful far beyond the innocent intentions of any one person asking it:
>> the othering of those who don't fit the norm. The question behind the
>> question, as Hari Kondabolu puts it: "Hey. Why aren't you white?"[1]
>> ...
>> > This is a microaggression[2], undoubtedly, and it should be treated as
>> one: largely unintentional, perhaps even well-intentioned, but nonetheless
>> harmful and something we should be taking direct action to avoid. Because
>> we *want* more people in our social spaces who don't fit the norm.
>> >
>> > It takes a bit of extra effort to watch that we're not alienating
>> people, but it's worth it.
>>
>> I'm aware of this phenomenon and its harm, but to be honest I can't
>> quite get my head around how the analogy fits here.
>>
>> To me, making an assumption that everyone at an LRUG event is a Ruby
>> developer just like you seems far from inclusive. If Monday's meeting
>> was typical in this regard, there are all kinds of developer,
>> pseudo-developer, and non-developer folk at the meetings. The community
>> comprises all kinds: developers; hobbyists; beginners; entrepreneurs;
>> managers; and others who won't identify themselves as "developers".[1]I
>> can't imagine anyone being offended by someone inquiring what their
>> interest in Ruby is, at a Ruby meeting.
>>
>> While personally I would not be offended by someone assuming I was or
>> was not a Ruby developer, to suggest that we all assume that everyone
>> *is* a developer seems to seek only to exclude. Stephen's original post,
>> regardless of any intent or lack thereof,really gave me the impression
>> that non-developers do not belong, or are less welcome than "Ruby
>> developers", at LRUG events. I do not assume that Stephen's comment had
>> any malicious intent. I just thought it was worth making the point that
>> we're not all developers and that it is exclusionary to assume so.
>>
>> Warren
>>
>> [1] For clarity, I don't intend to exclude beginners, hobbyists, etc,
>> from also considering themselves Ruby developers. Some will, some won't.
>> I think it's a personal thing.
>>
>
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