[LRUG] Juniors

Thu May 29 08:29:54 PDT 2014

> Thank you James for starting this feed.

No problem Bob!

> As a result, we have gone to work on creating a 3 month paid apprentice
> program

\o/

> So Junior Developers, friends of Junior developers, check us out at
> http://alphasights.com/ruby.

Shall point folks in your direction :)

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Marti Dumas
<marti.dumas at alphasights.com> wrote:
> Thank you James for starting this feed. We at AlphaSights found the comment
> and discussion that followed inspiring, thought-provoking and informative.
> As a result, we have gone to work on creating a 3 month paid apprentice
> program, and look to take on 2 junior developers in our London-based office,
> giving them responsibility on our business products from day one, but under
> the guidance and supervision of a senior developer all along  the way. After
> those 3 months, they'd be reviewed for a full-time position with a young,
> spirited entrepreneurial company that's startup in feel but established in
> its trajectory for success.
>
> So Junior Developers, friends of Junior developers, check us out at
> http://alphasights.com/ruby. To be considered send through your resume here,
> or reach out to me directly. I look forward to receiving your interest and
> sharing with you more about AlphaSights, our current Build team of 12, and
> what we're working on of late!
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Jason Hooper <jason.hooper at talk21.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I agree that this has been a most interesting discussion.
>>
>> I was one of Dan’s “coders”. I joined in September last year and am now
>> working as a full stack web developer with https://www.hihostels.com.
>>
>> I hesitate to call what Dan does a bootcamp. This generates images in my
>> mind of being “booted” out the door once the course is complete. This is not
>> his approach at all, as he has explained. So I rather see it as a “glove”
>> camp, where the trainees are taken by the hand, in a partnership, and then
>> gently passed on to their new employers.
>>
>> I self studied myself for a few months, did all the online stuff,
>> including two MOOCs, and still struggled to get in to see employers. And I
>> was an Oracle DBA who decided to re-skill! This all changed after the course
>> with We Got Coders. Once we qualified for the second phase, Dan found us
>> contracts where we could pair with him. And after 12 weeks of pairing, I was
>> offered a permanent job as a web developer. Sorted.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> On 22 May 2014, at 17:58, Dan Garland <dan at dangarland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > Great discussion so far. As someone who has worked in the junior dev
>> > training sector for over a year, I thought I would share my experiences in
>> > addressing this problem.
>> >
>> > Junior developers find themselves in a catch-22: they can't get a job
>> > without experience, and they can't get experience without a job.
>> > Understandably, dev companies set their entry requirements high when
>> > advertising a position, in order to obtain competent staff.
>> >
>> > However, being a competent web developer is not necessarily the same
>> > thing as having 2-3 years experience. In fact, trying to incorporate a
>> > developer with 2 years of say PHP experience into a Ruby team practising TDD
>> > might be just as challenging, if not more so, than taking on somebody more
>> > green and showing them your approach from first principles. So I think that
>> > dev companies must be open minded to entry-level talent if they are to break
>> > this loop. On the other hand, as has already been pointed out, this process
>> > is costly and risky; and even with a lot of good intentions not every
>> > developer is capable of being a good teacher, or has the time to break-off
>> > from front-line work to teach.
>> >
>> > Since September last year, I have tried to address this issue with my
>> > own project called We Got Coders. I have been taking on junior developers in
>> > my consultancy to teach them web development and then find them jobs, on
>> > which we pair program together. My approach aims to address the main
>> > concerns that employers have with taking on new juniors, by providing a
>> > low-risk way for employers to trial a junior for their ability and their
>> > culture-fit, before making the commitment to a permanent position. I aim to
>> > get someone to the point that I'm prepared to hire and vouch for them after
>> > three months of training, whereupon I hire the developer (i.e. they get
>> > paid; pretty essential I think), I find clients looking to take on
>> > developers and work with them on a contract basis, then mentor the trainee
>> > over a further three month period to help make the transition work.
>> >
>> > I have worked with four junior developers over the last six months on
>> > this basis, and as a result, all four found permanent positions working as
>> > Ruby developers. I have a case study from one of my clients as to their
>> > rationale for working along these lines: http://wegotcoders.tumblr.com
>> >
>> > Going forward I'm looking to expand the concept and take on more
>> > trainees and drive down the up-front costs. I've started to work with
>> > graduates, who don't pay for any training, but instead work for me directly
>> > on a longer-term basis, where we will work on longer-term contracts,
>> > in-house work or open-source projects. I've currently got five trainees who
>> > will be available in July. If you are interested in hearing more about us,
>> > please drop me a line.
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > P.S. As someone who has previously worked at GA, I can assure you that
>> > the sniping at them is unjustified. Many of my GA trainees walked straight
>> > into jobs; some needed more study time. The results of a 3-month bootcamp
>> > largely depend on who the instructor is and who the student is, and the
>> > experience level of both, regardless of whose logo is above the door.
>> > Everyone learns at their own speeds and there is no magic bullet.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 21/05/14 22:44, chat-request at lists.lrug.org wrote:
>> >> Send Chat mailing list submissions to
>> >>      chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >>      http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >>      chat-request at lists.lrug.org
>> >>
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>> >>      chat-owner at lists.lrug.org
>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Chat digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>    1. Re: Juniors (Tommy Palmer)
>> >>    2. Re: Juniors (Michael Pavling)
>> >>    3. Re: Juniors (louisror at gmail.com)
>> >>    4. Re: Juniors (Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd)
>> >>    5. Re: Juniors (George Drummond)
>> >>    6. Re: Juniors (Ed Lepedus)
>> >>    7. Re: Juniors (Matthew Rudy Jacobs)
>> >>    8. Re: Juniors (Brendan Murphy)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:10:39 +0100
>> >> From: Tommy Palmer <hi at tommyp.org>
>> >> To: Najaf Ali <ali at happybearsoftware.com>
>> >> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID: <A884A48973024100B72E239465CD7163 at tommyp.org>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >> I feel like I should weigh in on this topic as I?m a Junior Developer
>> >> at GDS.
>> >>
>> >> I got offered a part time (hourly paid) internship before finishing Uni
>> >> back home in Belfast with a local freelancer who had too much work on. I had
>> >> very little knowledge of Ruby beyond programming concepts, but I had a fair
>> >> bit of front end knowledge and studied Interactive Design. After 3 months, I
>> >> joined a small, local agency that we merged with.
>> >>
>> >> I worked there on various small projects and had a few years under my
>> >> belt, but applied as a Junior to GDS as my experience with large scale
>> >> projects was practically nil and I?d spent the last 2 years only picking up
>> >> one senior dev?s bad habits, rather than multiple ones.
>> >>
>> >> As far as I can see, a Junior Dev should have decent fraction of the
>> >> knowledge their non-Junior devs have, but lacking the experience that comes
>> >> with working on more complicated and larger projects. Pairing helps with
>> >> that, as does the patience of other developers. Being a Junior at a big
>> >> organisation, or a Junior working on large scale/audience projects appears
>> >> to require more knowledge than being a Junior at something like a small
>> >> agency.
>> >>
>> >> The job ad specifically mentioned that it would be a good fit for those
>> >> that have never worked on anything big, so maybe the definition of Junior
>> >> might be a sliding scale, depending on where you are?
>> >>
>> >> Tommy
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Tommy Palmer
>> >> @tommypalm
>> >> http://tommyp.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, 21 May 2014 at 16:57, Najaf Ali wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Glad you asked! Quite a few people who've read this email me about how
>> >>> they used it to find them their first job:
>> >>> http://happybearsoftware.com/kickstart-your-developer-career
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Marc Burt <marc.burt at gmail.com
>> >>> (mailto:marc.burt at gmail.com)> wrote:
>> >>>> Since it's on topic,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm one of these new Juniors (London unfortunately Ian) and have just
>> >>>> started looking for my first job - I've been self-training for the past 6
>> >>>> months through on-line courses.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone have advice on what I should be doing to maximise my
>> >>>> chances of finding somewhere soon?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 21 May 2014 16:41, Ian Moss <hello at ianmoss.com
>> >>>> (mailto:hello at ianmoss.com)> wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I've just started reaching out to 2nd and 3rd year Computer Science
>> >>>>> /
>> >>>>> Software Engineering students in Manchester to get involved with 196
>> >>>>> destinations on a contributory / for experience basis. Pleasantly
>> >>>>> surprised with getting 5 or so interested, given I've not had much
>> >>>>> response from local experienced rubyists, who are happy with their
>> >>>>> day
>> >>>>> rate, rather than taking a big risk on a startup. (Understood).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If any of your juniors are in the Manchester area and want to get
>> >>>>> involved on a similar basis, then it'd be great to hear from them. A
>> >>>>> real opportunity to help shape a new company :)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Front-end developers as well as server-side specialists are needed.
>> >>>>> (Ideally with a love of travel, and a team orientated sociable
>> >>>>> outlook).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We're an early days startup, with a partnership with several big
>> >>>>> travel
>> >>>>> companies in place. Pre-revenue & pre-investment, but lots of
>> >>>>> potential,
>> >>>>> with the right help.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Ian Moss
>> >>>>> http://196destinations.com - capturing your travel dreams & helping
>> >>>>> you
>> >>>>> get on the plane!
>> >>>>> http://twitter.com/oceanician // http://startupdigest.com/manchester
>> >>>>> //
>> >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/alteris //
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original message -----
>> >>>>> From: Thayer Prime <thayer at team-prime.com
>> >>>>> (mailto:thayer at team-prime.com)>
>> >>>>> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >>>>> (mailto:chat at lists.lrug.org)>
>> >>>>> Subject: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:22:07 +0100
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi LRUG
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I often come across juniors in my work (few a month), and almost
>> >>>>> none
>> >>>>> of my clients ever want junior ruby developers, I get like 1-2
>> >>>>> junior
>> >>>>> roles in a team once or twice a year, sadly. And even then they're
>> >>>>> often "juniors" that must have 2 years exp and a PHD and and and ;-)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If any of you ever do want juniors (and I mean 0-1 years experience
>> >>>>> types), drop me a line. If I have any at the time you're welcome to
>> >>>>> them free of charge as I'd really like to help more juniors get into
>> >>>>> our industry.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Seems strange that there's so much talk about skills shortages and
>> >>>>> yet
>> >>>>> not many companies seem prepared to train their own. *shrug*
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thayer
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Thayer Prime
>> >>>>> --------------------
>> >>>>> CEO & Founder
>> >>>>> Team Prime Ltd
>> >>>>> http://www.team-prime.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/thayerprime
>> >>>>> http://www.thayerprime.com
>> >>>>> @Thayer
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Chat mailing list
>> >>>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
>> >>>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Chat mailing list
>> >>>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
>> >>>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Chat mailing list
>> >>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
>> >>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Chat mailing list
>> >>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
>> >>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 2
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:04:14 +0100
>> >> From: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>
>> >> <CA+_7RLyXT6qhd4xBsV1guR1+j=TRBPfs935froaQ2tjHuGuNWw at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately
>> >>> employable.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my
>> >> experience
>> >> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no corporate
>> >> axe
>> >> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment
>> >> stats
>> >> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year, and
>> >> the
>> >> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets'
>> >> that
>> >> run at the end of each course.
>> >>
>> >>> From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are
>> >>> very
>> >> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that
>> >> assertion
>> >> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
>> >> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
>> >> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
>> >> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
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>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 3
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:45:07 +0100
>> >> From: louisror at gmail.com
>> >> To: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>, chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID: <20140521174507.5906577.75223.28376 at gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >>
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>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chat mailing list
>> >> Chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 4
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:36:29 -0700
>> >> From: "Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd" <glenn at rubypond.com>
>> >> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>
>> >> <CAJVSNSyZn9=D8rtntHbYCSM+A9QP4vqhC_oCEFiTN6a70tn_9Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >>> I can't speak for everyone but my experience is that while the boot
>> >>> camps
>> >>> provide an excellent introduction to web development, the developers
>> >>> they
>> >>> produce are often not immediately employable.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> We've hired 2 developers from Hackbright recently, so admittedly my
>> >> experience is limited to that one program. Both have been able to
>> >> independently ship new product features and major refactorings within 2
>> >> months after mentoring and guidance. Hackbright is a Python based
>> >> curriculum so the on the job training has also meant learning Ruby and
>> >> Go
>> >> which are the primary languages in use at Heroku.
>> >>
>> >> It's a really small sample but I think the success has mostly been on
>> >> the
>> >> back of two factors (in order of impact):
>> >>
>> >> - I think most of the success of Hackbright isn't in the curriculum but
>> >> in
>> >> a rigorous selection and qualification process. The graduates appear to
>> >> have degrees in other fields and all of them have shown an aptitude to
>> >> learn new complex ideas really quickly.
>> >> - We've been fortunate to have a handful of colleagues who are good
>> >> mentors, with just enough slack.
>> >>
>> >> Expecting any junior to be immediately productive within the first week
>> >> is
>> >> naive but we're not talking a year of being in the wilderness either.
>> >> The
>> >> perceived risks can be mitigated with some focussed upfront effort on
>> >> the
>> >> part of the new employer. And with a developer facing product we've had
>> >> the
>> >> added benefit of being able to witness first hand the problems a junior
>> >> dev
>> >> has using our tools, and we've empowered them to do something about it.
>> >> It's more than justified the effort just to get the empathy for this
>> >> perspective.
>> >>
>> >> G
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>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 5
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
>> >> From: "George Drummond" <georgedrummond at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "Michael Pavling" <pavling at gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID: <1400697618187.3cdfdadb at Nodemailer>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >> In my experience, "Graduates" of GA type courses leave with a very
>> >> elementary knowledge in rails/testing/development and hugely inflated
>> >> expectations of how valuable they are as developers.?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> How much can one really learn in 8 weeks from an unaccredited course
>> >> taught by self proclaimed educators? I also feel the "graduate" label they
>> >> like to throw around is completely bogus and only clever marketing to
>> >> quantify their extremely high course fees from an unlicensed educational
>> >> establishment.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> One good thing GA does do is encourage open source contributions. The
>> >> first thing I generally do when receiving a speculative email from a
>> >> candidate is check out their GitHub. For me this is a very powerful
>> >> indicator to their experience, commitment and skill set. Another important
>> >> thing for me is if they have any interesting personal projects.?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Unpaid internships are totally unethical but at least you aren't paying
>> >> thousands for a phony qualification.?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The minimum wage is a right everyone in this country shares and
>> >> businesses should not be exploiting people asking them to do work for free.?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The best engineers I've worked with are either self taught or
>> >> university graduates. Maybe one day I'll meet a brilliant GA graduate but
>> >> I'm still waiting for that to happen.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>  the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately
>> >>>> employable.
>> >>>>
>> >>> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my
>> >>> experience
>> >>> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no
>> >>> corporate axe
>> >>> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment
>> >>> stats
>> >>> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year,
>> >>> and the
>> >>> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets'
>> >>> that
>> >>> run at the end of each course.
>> >>> From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are
>> >>> very
>> >>> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that
>> >>> assertion
>> >>> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
>> >>> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
>> >>> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
>> >>> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
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>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 6
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:01:05 +0100
>> >> From: Ed Lepedus <ed.lepedus at googlemail.com>
>> >> To: chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID: <BF141031-3656-45D4-AB17-53899B1B0425 at googlemail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >>
>> >> I'm not the most qualified to give an opinion on this - I certainly
>> >> have never hired anyone - but I think some observations from the other side
>> >> of the fence might help inform the discussion.
>> >>
>> >> Firstly, the word 'junior' has been thrown about so much as to be
>> >> utterly meaningless. The difference between a keen amateur, someone who has
>> >> a couple of years experience but just 'fell into it', a CS graduate who just
>> >> scraped a 2:1 and a top-of-class 2nd year undergraduate is HUGE. Yet they
>> >> all fall into the same category.
>> >>
>> >> For example, I am a mature student about to embark on a year-long
>> >> industrial placement as part of my CS degree at Kent. Over the last couple
>> >> of years I've made a point of getting to know as many of the 400 or so
>> >> students in the School of Computing, and I can tell you they can be worlds
>> >> apart - even within the same university studying the same course. I know
>> >> Stage 2 students who have set up their own businesses or have created
>> >> multiple cross-platform games on their own from concept to app-store, and
>> >> others who have the likes of Goldman Sachs and CISCO in California competing
>> >> to offer them industrial placements. I know final-year students who can't
>> >> set up their machines to use SVN, while others have built Erlang IDEs for
>> >> their final year project.
>> >>
>> >> This is all within a single university, and all these people would be
>> >> considered 'junior', along with others from different courses at different
>> >> universities, or people with no qualifications or experience etc.
>> >>
>> >> By far the best thing we, as an industry, can do is abandon the label,
>> >> and look at the individuals. Take fifteen minutes out of your day to have a
>> >> chat on the phone. Sure, you'll find a lot of people who do this because the
>> >> 'like computer games', but you will also find many others who will blow your
>> >> socks off.
>> >>
>> >> Also, keep this in mind when offering unpaid, or minimum-wage
>> >> positions: the best candidates (i.e: the ones you probably want) will have
>> >> options, and no matter how much they like you, will struggle to justify
>> >> taking 10-15k less just so they can work for you.
>> >>
>> >> If you are in central London and offering 15k (yes, I'm not making this
>> >> up), you will probably not attract the best candidates, and might be tempted
>> >> to think that there are no decent juniors about, when in fact, they simply
>> >> aren't wasting their time with your advert.
>> >>
>> >> I hope my candor doesn't offend - I've found this whole discussion very
>> >> interesting.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Ed
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 7
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:52:17 +0100
>> >> From: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
>> >> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>
>> >> <CAADxtW9d3mwK7pd05qj=dpW0bJa5AB9LYtcPY3g0HS50cLK54Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
>> >>
>> >> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework
>> >> in
>> >> Uni,
>> >> but I had no idea of real world development.
>> >>
>> >> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and
>> >> talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped
>> >> me
>> >> on.
>> >>
>> >> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn
>> >> Rails"
>> >>
>> >> And I did.
>> >>
>> >> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web
>> >> development
>> >> with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
>> >>
>> >> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
>> >>
>> >> Real world development is different, of course.
>> >>
>> >> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12 weeks
>> >> training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
>> >>
>> >> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before they
>> >> turn on you and demand a daily rate.
>> >>
>> >> Everyone has to start somewhere!
>> >> -------------- next part --------------
>> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >> URL:
>> >> <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/d33a2278/attachment-0001.htm>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 8
>> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:47:21 +0100
>> >> From: Brendan Murphy <brendan at enthuse.me>
>> >> To: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
>> >> Message-ID: <1F9432D2-7EDE-43D0-9441-C0CB1269AE93 at enthuse.me>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >>
>> >> +1 rudy :-)
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On 21 May 2014, at 20:52, Matthew Rudy Jacobs
>> >> <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework
>> >>> in Uni,
>> >>> but I had no idea of real world development.
>> >>>
>> >>> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and
>> >>> talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped me
>> >>> on.
>> >>>
>> >>> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn
>> >>> Rails"
>> >>>
>> >>> And I did.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web
>> >>> development with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
>> >>>
>> >>> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
>> >>>
>> >>> Real world development is different, of course.
>> >>>
>> >>> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12
>> >>> weeks training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
>> >>>
>> >>> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before
>> >>> they turn on you and demand a daily rate.
>> >>>
>> >>> Everyone has to start somewhere!
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Chat mailing list
>> >>> Chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
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>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Digest Footer
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chat mailing list
>> >> Chat at lists.lrug.org
>> >> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> End of Chat Digest, Vol 100, Issue 15
>> >> *************************************
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > Chat at lists.lrug.org
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>>
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