[LRUG] Juniors

Thu May 29 08:50:46 PDT 2014

Here Here Marti!

We too have energised a mentoring programme at Unboxed Consulting. 

Traditionally we have taken paid interns in over the summer holidays, put them on a couple of weeks training courses in RoR and an Intro to agile and then let them experiment with one of our internal products before experiencing client projects, working next to our more senior developers. Its a great way for us to meet smart juniors and have them adopt the way we work - in fact, a fair proportion of our current staff started their journey with us that way.

We often create space within the organisation for people who have the right attitude, hiring them for their energy and facilitating growth. If a junior has committed enough energy to create a deploy a simple, tested app, we have enough patience to help them grow.

Our plan is to ensure that they have a clear development path with set goals that they can measure themselves by, to feed this back to them and help them to develop confidence in reaching out to user groups and stretch themselves. Having interns needs to be a two way street, we want to have given them the best opportunities available when they decide to work for us. 

Thayer, feel free to send keen juniors our way any time.

Thanks

Claire

Claire Kemp	
Unboxed
Consulting
E:	claire.kemp at unboxedconsulting.com         
M:	+44 79 6429 2002
T:	+44 20 3137 2951
F:	+44 20 7183 4251	
17 Blossom Street
London, E1 6PL
United Kingdom
www.unboxedconsulting.com
On 29 May 2014, at 15:13, Marti Dumas <marti.dumas at alphasights.com> wrote:

> Thank you James for starting this feed. We at AlphaSights found the comment and discussion that followed inspiring, thought-provoking and informative. As a result, we have gone to work on creating a 3 month paid apprentice program, and look to take on 2 junior developers in our London-based office, giving them responsibility on our business products from day one, but under the guidance and supervision of a senior developer all along  the way. After those 3 months, they'd be reviewed for a full-time position with a young, spirited entrepreneurial company that's startup in feel but established in its trajectory for success. 
> 
> So Junior Developers, friends of Junior developers, check us out at http://alphasights.com/ruby. To be considered send through your resume here, or reach out to me directly. I look forward to receiving your interest and sharing with you more about AlphaSights, our current Build team of 12, and what we're working on of late!
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Jason Hooper <jason.hooper at talk21.com> wrote:
> I agree that this has been a most interesting discussion.
> 
> I was one of Dan’s “coders”. I joined in September last year and am now working as a full stack web developer with https://www.hihostels.com.
> 
> I hesitate to call what Dan does a bootcamp. This generates images in my mind of being “booted” out the door once the course is complete. This is not his approach at all, as he has explained. So I rather see it as a “glove” camp, where the trainees are taken by the hand, in a partnership, and then gently passed on to their new employers.
> 
> I self studied myself for a few months, did all the online stuff, including two MOOCs, and still struggled to get in to see employers. And I was an Oracle DBA who decided to re-skill! This all changed after the course with We Got Coders. Once we qualified for the second phase, Dan found us contracts where we could pair with him. And after 12 weeks of pairing, I was offered a permanent job as a web developer. Sorted.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> On 22 May 2014, at 17:58, Dan Garland <dan at dangarland.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Great discussion so far. As someone who has worked in the junior dev training sector for over a year, I thought I would share my experiences in addressing this problem.
> >
> > Junior developers find themselves in a catch-22: they can't get a job without experience, and they can't get experience without a job. Understandably, dev companies set their entry requirements high when advertising a position, in order to obtain competent staff.
> >
> > However, being a competent web developer is not necessarily the same thing as having 2-3 years experience. In fact, trying to incorporate a developer with 2 years of say PHP experience into a Ruby team practising TDD might be just as challenging, if not more so, than taking on somebody more green and showing them your approach from first principles. So I think that dev companies must be open minded to entry-level talent if they are to break this loop. On the other hand, as has already been pointed out, this process is costly and risky; and even with a lot of good intentions not every developer is capable of being a good teacher, or has the time to break-off from front-line work to teach.
> >
> > Since September last year, I have tried to address this issue with my own project called We Got Coders. I have been taking on junior developers in my consultancy to teach them web development and then find them jobs, on which we pair program together. My approach aims to address the main concerns that employers have with taking on new juniors, by providing a low-risk way for employers to trial a junior for their ability and their culture-fit, before making the commitment to a permanent position. I aim to get someone to the point that I'm prepared to hire and vouch for them after three months of training, whereupon I hire the developer (i.e. they get paid; pretty essential I think), I find clients looking to take on developers and work with them on a contract basis, then mentor the trainee over a further three month period to help make the transition work.
> >
> > I have worked with four junior developers over the last six months on this basis, and as a result, all four found permanent positions working as Ruby developers. I have a case study from one of my clients as to their rationale for working along these lines: http://wegotcoders.tumblr.com
> >
> > Going forward I'm looking to expand the concept and take on more trainees and drive down the up-front costs. I've started to work with graduates, who don't pay for any training, but instead work for me directly on a longer-term basis, where we will work on longer-term contracts, in-house work or open-source projects. I've currently got five trainees who will be available in July. If you are interested in hearing more about us, please drop me a line.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > P.S. As someone who has previously worked at GA, I can assure you that the sniping at them is unjustified. Many of my GA trainees walked straight into jobs; some needed more study time. The results of a 3-month bootcamp largely depend on who the instructor is and who the student is, and the experience level of both, regardless of whose logo is above the door. Everyone learns at their own speeds and there is no magic bullet.
> >
> >
> > On 21/05/14 22:44, chat-request at lists.lrug.org wrote:
> >> Send Chat mailing list submissions to
> >>      chat at lists.lrug.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>      http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>      chat-request at lists.lrug.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>      chat-owner at lists.lrug.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Chat digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>    1. Re: Juniors (Tommy Palmer)
> >>    2. Re: Juniors (Michael Pavling)
> >>    3. Re: Juniors (louisror at gmail.com)
> >>    4. Re: Juniors (Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd)
> >>    5. Re: Juniors (George Drummond)
> >>    6. Re: Juniors (Ed Lepedus)
> >>    7. Re: Juniors (Matthew Rudy Jacobs)
> >>    8. Re: Juniors (Brendan Murphy)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:10:39 +0100
> >> From: Tommy Palmer <hi at tommyp.org>
> >> To: Najaf Ali <ali at happybearsoftware.com>
> >> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID: <A884A48973024100B72E239465CD7163 at tommyp.org>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> I feel like I should weigh in on this topic as I?m a Junior Developer at GDS.
> >>
> >> I got offered a part time (hourly paid) internship before finishing Uni back home in Belfast with a local freelancer who had too much work on. I had very little knowledge of Ruby beyond programming concepts, but I had a fair bit of front end knowledge and studied Interactive Design. After 3 months, I joined a small, local agency that we merged with.
> >>
> >> I worked there on various small projects and had a few years under my belt, but applied as a Junior to GDS as my experience with large scale projects was practically nil and I?d spent the last 2 years only picking up one senior dev?s bad habits, rather than multiple ones.
> >>
> >> As far as I can see, a Junior Dev should have decent fraction of the knowledge their non-Junior devs have, but lacking the experience that comes with working on more complicated and larger projects. Pairing helps with that, as does the patience of other developers. Being a Junior at a big organisation, or a Junior working on large scale/audience projects appears to require more knowledge than being a Junior at something like a small agency.
> >>
> >> The job ad specifically mentioned that it would be a good fit for those that have never worked on anything big, so maybe the definition of Junior might be a sliding scale, depending on where you are?
> >>
> >> Tommy
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tommy Palmer
> >> @tommypalm
> >> http://tommyp.org/
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, 21 May 2014 at 16:57, Najaf Ali wrote:
> >>
> >>> Glad you asked! Quite a few people who've read this email me about how they used it to find them their first job: http://happybearsoftware.com/kickstart-your-developer-career
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Marc Burt <marc.burt at gmail.com (mailto:marc.burt at gmail.com)> wrote:
> >>>> Since it's on topic,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm one of these new Juniors (London unfortunately Ian) and have just started looking for my first job - I've been self-training for the past 6 months through on-line courses.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone have advice on what I should be doing to maximise my chances of finding somewhere soon?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 21 May 2014 16:41, Ian Moss <hello at ianmoss.com (mailto:hello at ianmoss.com)> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've just started reaching out to 2nd and 3rd year Computer Science /
> >>>>> Software Engineering students in Manchester to get involved with 196
> >>>>> destinations on a contributory / for experience basis. Pleasantly
> >>>>> surprised with getting 5 or so interested, given I've not had much
> >>>>> response from local experienced rubyists, who are happy with their day
> >>>>> rate, rather than taking a big risk on a startup. (Understood).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If any of your juniors are in the Manchester area and want to get
> >>>>> involved on a similar basis, then it'd be great to hear from them. A
> >>>>> real opportunity to help shape a new company :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Front-end developers as well as server-side specialists are needed.
> >>>>> (Ideally with a love of travel, and a team orientated sociable outlook).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We're an early days startup, with a partnership with several big travel
> >>>>> companies in place. Pre-revenue & pre-investment, but lots of potential,
> >>>>> with the right help.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Ian Moss
> >>>>> http://196destinations.com - capturing your travel dreams & helping you
> >>>>> get on the plane!
> >>>>> http://twitter.com/oceanician // http://startupdigest.com/manchester  //
> >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/alteris //
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original message -----
> >>>>> From: Thayer Prime <thayer at team-prime.com (mailto:thayer at team-prime.com)>
> >>>>> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:chat at lists.lrug.org)>
> >>>>> Subject: [LRUG] Juniors
> >>>>> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:22:07 +0100
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi LRUG
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I often come across juniors in my work (few a month), and almost none
> >>>>> of my clients ever want junior ruby developers, I get like 1-2 junior
> >>>>> roles in a team once or twice a year, sadly. And even then they're
> >>>>> often "juniors" that must have 2 years exp and a PHD and and and ;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If any of you ever do want juniors (and I mean 0-1 years experience
> >>>>> types), drop me a line. If I have any at the time you're welcome to
> >>>>> them free of charge as I'd really like to help more juniors get into
> >>>>> our industry.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Seems strange that there's so much talk about skills shortages and yet
> >>>>> not many companies seem prepared to train their own. *shrug*
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thayer
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Thayer Prime
> >>>>> --------------------
> >>>>> CEO & Founder
> >>>>> Team Prime Ltd
> >>>>> http://www.team-prime.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/thayerprime
> >>>>> http://www.thayerprime.com
> >>>>> @Thayer
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Chat mailing list
> >>>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
> >>>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Chat mailing list
> >>>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
> >>>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Chat mailing list
> >>>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
> >>>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chat mailing list
> >>> Chat at lists.lrug.org (mailto:Chat at lists.lrug.org)
> >>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/c64c614a/attachment.html>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:04:14 +0100
> >> From: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
> >> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID:
> >>      <CA+_7RLyXT6qhd4xBsV1guR1+j=TRBPfs935froaQ2tjHuGuNWw at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>  the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately employable.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my experience
> >> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no corporate axe
> >> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment stats
> >> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year, and the
> >> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets' that
> >> run at the end of each course.
> >>
> >>> From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are very
> >> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that assertion
> >> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
> >> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
> >> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
> >> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/a0a81eca/attachment-0001.htm>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:45:07 +0100
> >> From: louisror at gmail.com
> >> To: Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>, chat at lists.lrug.org
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID: <20140521174507.5906577.75223.28376 at gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/d20554eb/attachment-0001.htm>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chat mailing list
> >> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> >> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:36:29 -0700
> >> From: "Glenn @ Ruby Pond Ltd" <glenn at rubypond.com>
> >> To: "chat at lists.lrug.org" <chat at lists.lrug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID:
> >>      <CAJVSNSyZn9=D8rtntHbYCSM+A9QP4vqhC_oCEFiTN6a70tn_9Q at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >>> I can't speak for everyone but my experience is that while the boot camps
> >>> provide an excellent introduction to web development, the developers they
> >>> produce are often not immediately employable.
> >>>
> >>
> >> We've hired 2 developers from Hackbright recently, so admittedly my
> >> experience is limited to that one program. Both have been able to
> >> independently ship new product features and major refactorings within 2
> >> months after mentoring and guidance. Hackbright is a Python based
> >> curriculum so the on the job training has also meant learning Ruby and Go
> >> which are the primary languages in use at Heroku.
> >>
> >> It's a really small sample but I think the success has mostly been on the
> >> back of two factors (in order of impact):
> >>
> >> - I think most of the success of Hackbright isn't in the curriculum but in
> >> a rigorous selection and qualification process. The graduates appear to
> >> have degrees in other fields and all of them have shown an aptitude to
> >> learn new complex ideas really quickly.
> >> - We've been fortunate to have a handful of colleagues who are good
> >> mentors, with just enough slack.
> >>
> >> Expecting any junior to be immediately productive within the first week is
> >> naive but we're not talking a year of being in the wilderness either. The
> >> perceived risks can be mitigated with some focussed upfront effort on the
> >> part of the new employer. And with a developer facing product we've had the
> >> added benefit of being able to witness first hand the problems a junior dev
> >> has using our tools, and we've empowered them to do something about it.
> >> It's more than justified the effort just to get the empathy for this
> >> perspective.
> >>
> >> G
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/b2271474/attachment-0001.htm>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 5
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: "George Drummond" <georgedrummond at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Michael Pavling" <pavling at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: chat at lists.lrug.org
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID: <1400697618187.3cdfdadb at Nodemailer>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> In my experience, "Graduates" of GA type courses leave with a very elementary knowledge in rails/testing/development and hugely inflated expectations of how valuable they are as developers.?
> >>
> >>
> >> How much can one really learn in 8 weeks from an unaccredited course taught by self proclaimed educators? I also feel the "graduate" label they like to throw around is completely bogus and only clever marketing to quantify their extremely high course fees from an unlicensed educational establishment.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> One good thing GA does do is encourage open source contributions. The first thing I generally do when receiving a speculative email from a candidate is check out their GitHub. For me this is a very powerful indicator to their experience, commitment and skill set. Another important thing for me is if they have any interesting personal projects.?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Unpaid internships are totally unethical but at least you aren't paying thousands for a phony qualification.?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The minimum wage is a right everyone in this country shares and businesses should not be exploiting people asking them to do work for free.?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The best engineers I've worked with are either self taught or university graduates. Maybe one day I'll meet a brilliant GA graduate but I'm still waiting for that to happen.
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Michael Pavling <pavling at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 21 May 2014 15:57, Louis Goff-Beardsley <louisror at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>  the developers [boot camps] produce are often not immediately employable.
> >>>>
> >>> I can't speak for others (other 'boot camps' that is), but my experience
> >>> teaching at General Assembly (as a contractor... so I have no corporate axe
> >>> to grind) is absolutely antithetical of that - as is the employment stats
> >>> of the grads from the WDI courses that have run over the last year, and the
> >>> attitude of employers that attend the recruitment 'meet-and-greets' that
> >>> run at the end of each course.
> >>> From what I hear of other providers' courses though, the stories are very
> >>> similar, so I'd be interested to find out what you're basing that assertion
> >>> on. What sorts of things do you feel the graduates you meet are often
> >>> lacking that causes them to not be immediately employable? (since the
> >>> curriculum of the courses are generally based on the premise that they
> >>> should be... and if we're missing anything, it would be nice to know)
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/1fd217b5/attachment-0001.htm>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 6
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:01:05 +0100
> >> From: Ed Lepedus <ed.lepedus at googlemail.com>
> >> To: chat at lists.lrug.org
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID: <BF141031-3656-45D4-AB17-53899B1B0425 at googlemail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >>
> >> I'm not the most qualified to give an opinion on this - I certainly have never hired anyone - but I think some observations from the other side of the fence might help inform the discussion.
> >>
> >> Firstly, the word 'junior' has been thrown about so much as to be utterly meaningless. The difference between a keen amateur, someone who has a couple of years experience but just 'fell into it', a CS graduate who just scraped a 2:1 and a top-of-class 2nd year undergraduate is HUGE. Yet they all fall into the same category.
> >>
> >> For example, I am a mature student about to embark on a year-long industrial placement as part of my CS degree at Kent. Over the last couple of years I've made a point of getting to know as many of the 400 or so students in the School of Computing, and I can tell you they can be worlds apart - even within the same university studying the same course. I know Stage 2 students who have set up their own businesses or have created multiple cross-platform games on their own from concept to app-store, and others who have the likes of Goldman Sachs and CISCO in California competing to offer them industrial placements. I know final-year students who can't set up their machines to use SVN, while others have built Erlang IDEs for their final year project.
> >>
> >> This is all within a single university, and all these people would be considered 'junior', along with others from different courses at different universities, or people with no qualifications or experience etc.
> >>
> >> By far the best thing we, as an industry, can do is abandon the label, and look at the individuals. Take fifteen minutes out of your day to have a chat on the phone. Sure, you'll find a lot of people who do this because the 'like computer games', but you will also find many others who will blow your socks off.
> >>
> >> Also, keep this in mind when offering unpaid, or minimum-wage positions: the best candidates (i.e: the ones you probably want) will have options, and no matter how much they like you, will struggle to justify taking 10-15k less just so they can work for you.
> >>
> >> If you are in central London and offering 15k (yes, I'm not making this up), you will probably not attract the best candidates, and might be tempted to think that there are no decent juniors about, when in fact, they simply aren't wasting their time with your advert.
> >>
> >> I hope my candor doesn't offend - I've found this whole discussion very interesting.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Ed
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 7
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:52:17 +0100
> >> From: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
> >> To: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID:
> >>      <CAADxtW9d3mwK7pd05qj=dpW0bJa5AB9LYtcPY3g0HS50cLK54Q at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
> >>
> >> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework in
> >> Uni,
> >> but I had no idea of real world development.
> >>
> >> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and
> >> talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped me
> >> on.
> >>
> >> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn Rails"
> >>
> >> And I did.
> >>
> >> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web development
> >> with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
> >>
> >> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
> >>
> >> Real world development is different, of course.
> >>
> >> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12 weeks
> >> training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
> >>
> >> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before they
> >> turn on you and demand a daily rate.
> >>
> >> Everyone has to start somewhere!
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/d33a2278/attachment-0001.htm>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 8
> >> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:47:21 +0100
> >> From: Brendan Murphy <brendan at enthuse.me>
> >> To: Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: London Ruby Users Group <chat at lrug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [LRUG] Juniors
> >> Message-ID: <1F9432D2-7EDE-43D0-9441-C0CB1269AE93 at enthuse.me>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> +1 rudy :-)
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On 21 May 2014, at 20:52, Matthew Rudy Jacobs <matthewrudyjacobs at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> When I got my first job, I'd only ever hacked stuff together.
> >>>
> >>> I'd made a blog in php, and done a bit of hacky C for maths coursework in Uni,
> >>> but I had no idea of real world development.
> >>>
> >>> I went for an interview, and I coded pseudo c++ on a white board, and talked vaguely about polymorphism and other stuff a friend had prepped me on.
> >>>
> >>> They gave me the job, but told me to "go away for 2 months and learn Rails"
> >>>
> >>> And I did.
> >>>
> >>> Sitting in my room reading why's poignant guide, and Agile web development with Rails, I thought I knew what development was.
> >>>
> >>> But starting on my first day I had throw that out of the window.
> >>>
> >>> Real world development is different, of course.
> >>>
> >>> Graduates of General Assembly and their like may only have had 12 weeks training, but it's practical, and broad, and they learn TDD.
> >>>
> >>> Don't hire the bad ones, but the good ones you should grab, before they turn on you and demand a daily rate.
> >>>
> >>> Everyone has to start somewhere!
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chat mailing list
> >>> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> >>> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140521/375519a1/attachment-0001.htm>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chat mailing list
> >> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> >> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> End of Chat Digest, Vol 100, Issue 15
> >> *************************************
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chat mailing list
> > Chat at lists.lrug.org
> > http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chat mailing list
> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> MARTI DUMAS
> 
> alphasights.com  |  Better decisions, faster. 
> 229 West 43rd Street, 4th Floor, NY 10036, United States 
> Tel +1 212 231 9024  |  Mob +1 252 624 5660
> 
> Marti Dumas on LinkedIn
> We are hiring
> 
> This e-mail message is intended only for the recipient identified in the address of this message. It may contain information that is confidential, privileged or subject to legal restrictions and penalties regarding its unauthorized disclosure and use. Any unauthorized review, copying, disclosure, use or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message, and any attachments, from your system. AlphaSights Ltd is a Private Limited Company registered in England No. 6534480.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chat mailing list
> Chat at lists.lrug.org
> http://lists.lrug.org/listinfo.cgi/chat-lrug.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/attachments/20140529/55d71f4f/attachment-0003.html>